Thinking about SSL but...

Well first let me say I am a happy Final Scratch user and have never had any problems with FS that was not user related. Been using it since Feb of 2003 without a problem. No hate please.

But I am interested (from all the praises I have heard) in stepping up to SSL. But a few people I have talked to over the Net who have gotten SSL seem to be telling me the same things that many FS users (in the past) were telling me about FS. They are telling me it a bit buggy and that in a long term playing situation that its equally as stable/unstable as FS. I hear its fine for scracthing and tricks and reacts identical to vinyl but if you have to play a set it will sometimes mess up. Now obvious teaming up with Rane I know this baby is going to sound crisp, and the "box" construction is much more durable then FS's Scratch Hub. Either way I am looking for soem opnions on this. More so, people who have had problems, because its safe to say, if you never had a problem you would have no issues. Also I see FS2 is coming out as well whicnh looks greatly improved but all and all I want to try Serato out. Give me your feed back.

I've only been deejaying since the dawn of digital vinyl emulation... so two years now, but im not a dj im studying to be an electrical engineer (i only dj for fun). Anyways I started when Finalscratch 1.0 first came out (2002) and was completly amazed with the fact i could spin all my mp3s, but as my style progressed I noticed that i 'out grew' FS when it came to scratching... that is FS could no longer handle the vinyl manipulations i was throwing at it ( mostly a speed problem - ie audio would break up at considerably high velocities)... thus i had to scratch using regular vinyl (which i basically had none... this is because i never used vinyl only FS and all my music came from ripped cds or mp3s i had already attained) ... now this may seem kinda weird but i can never 'go back' to vinyl because i was never there to begin with. I really never had a problem with FS.. beside the horrible sound quality, but as far as crashing goes... it only seemed to crash when i was running fs 1.0 on a linux distro that I had ported FS to myself (slackware)... and i couldnt hadnle how horrible the sound quality was on TFS... that is: for some reason FS1.0 sound quality was far better that 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 and 1.5... So i needed an evolved system to adapt my evolving style... so I really didnt have that much of a problem with FS I just felt it was inadeqate (for me) as far as my 'djing career </sarcasm> =)' went... I should also mention that I LOOOOVE electronics, technology, and physics and anything that has to do with them this was another reason i switched not entierly because of deejaying (hence the EE thing), so ill leave you with this: I now have a perfect vinyl emulation system and dont think i will every have to buy another one [but as far as the technology goes I will always follow the technology, but as far as working system goes this one is perfect]... i can spin mp3s for the rest of my life which is an amazing thing :)

... oh i did have a few issues on FS with side B not working all the time... iv never got this from SL, and SL runs rock solid its never crashed or sounded bad!

im running: toshiba A25 P-4 2.7ghz/512m/40g

Im a very satisfied customer =)

One more thing... If i had to direct people between FS and SL i would say avoid FS!!! its not that great of a system and stanton is not the great of a company... RANE and Serato on the other hand are steallar companiesw/ outstanding support!

comparing FS1 and SSL, i think that...

1- SSL sounds better (output volume is lower though).
2- SSL is better for scratching, a lot better!
3- SSL support back cueuing and fast back spinning (FS1 dont).
2+3 = SSL is closer to real vinyl than FS1.
4- SSL box is tighter.
5- SSL support is dope.

BUT

1- nowadays SSL is not stable enough. it has to be improved.
2- SSL interface is too dark. it has to be improved.
3- SSL eats more CPU. it has to be improved.
4- SSL overall waveform view is too small for beat-matching. it has to be improved.

my conclusion is that SSL is a lot better than FS1 (i have not watched or proved FS2), specially for turntablist or hip-hop djs, but it still need more "polish". more stability is a must.

keep on spinning!

i forgot,

6- SSL transient view for beatmatching is dope! a real good improvement for house-trance djs.

There was no 1.2/3/4 of FS, at least not an official that I am aware of.

FS has a better GUI, I think, esp. the wave forms etc. it has a batch analyzer (which SSL will have soon), and auto gain (dont know about that status in SSL). Also FS is essentially louder than SSL, but it has been explained that SSL follows the standards of maximun certain voltage on the lines, but I would rather have a louder output than a correct followed standard. These are pros on FS.

But these are not essential pros, I can easily work around these in SSL, and I dont need to compromise during playtime.

From time to time a have an occasional dropout of about 1 second in SSL which cause I cant determine (both sides dont play for a second) and on my system there are no unusual background services.

SSL has an better over all handling (cases, external drives, usability of the case on different systems), much better sound, to me its more reliable than FS etc. But the main thing is, SSL customer service is awesome, nothing that neither native instruments nor stanton could cope with.

Until now, I havent regretted moving to SSL, not a single second.

where do you have your levels? I've found you can easily go into the red in ssl without any distortion (around 1'oclock) to give you the extra dB you need for gain. it seems the "meter" errs on the conservative end. doing this gets me closer to the 11 or 12'clock positions i usually cue on my ttm56.

yes, but it is very annoying to change gain knob using the mouse over and over again (everytime you load a new track)

i repeat, VERY annoying.

The per channel gain controls are for adjusting specific tracks which are too quiet - the value is saved with the track. If your overall output is too quiet, use the master gain.

well at least the gain settings are saved with each track. you can't tell me you don't play at least some of same tracks each you fire up ssl. even if you don't, how lazy are you? it's like nobody wants to set levels ever.

Honestly my feeling is, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If FS run's perfectly for you then why change up? The only reason I switched was because FS wasn't performing as advertised and the customer support sucked.

You take a gamble on these things when you upgrade. Hell, FS2 might not even work for you (it's a possibility).

But my feedback is SSL works perfectly for me (I spin house, trance, breaks, nrg ect...) I've never been a big scratch dj so I'm not sure personally how it performs. But, with beatmatching dj stuff, it's much nicer that FS ever was... plus the ability to do backspins yay!

Good luck on your quest ;)

I usually adjust gain levels on my mixer...it's easier to grab & twist a knob than fiddle with a mouse/touchpad/trackpoint to increase it in SSL.

i scratch... and i dont have one single problem

bla...bla...bla....bla SO!? anyway SSL is the ROCK.....!!!!!

If you are on a Mac the fix for this is to type command+option+8(white on black) or in the Univesal Access preference pane click on "switch to white on black". ;)

Yeah, but I have to crank up my gains on my ttm56 to the max, the same files in FS were much louder.

KFunk- you are a genious, i have never thought about that. it doesn't bother me too much as it is, but i can't wait to get home and try it with the screen inverted.

If I'm not mistaken, the correct Keys are: CMD+OPT+CTRL+8. Greets!

lazy? my track collection is more than 20 g!! that is, over 3000 tracks... and im getting new music all days.

so you are telling to me that i have to adjust gain every time i load a new track? thats no good :P

btw, i got master gain set to max of course, and i use mp3 gain to set all tracks to 94,5 db.

but it is not enough if we compare SSL output volume with FS or normal vinyl.

... last gig, i had to crank up the mixer gains, and the dj who played after me didnt realize about that... you can imagine what happened when he mixed a track from his vinyl and opened the upfader... baaaaammmmm!!!!!

BC, you shouldn't be adjusting the gain of every track you load. That gain knob is not there to turn the output level of scratch live up, it is there to adjust the occasional quiet mp3 so that it matches the rest of your collection.

If scratch live is too quiet, the only correct solution is to turn up the gain on your mixer. The master gain knob on scratch live is not the same as the gain on a mixer. The gain on a mixer sets the level of amplification, but the master gain in scratch live sets the digital level of the music before conversion to analog. This means that neither the master gain, nor the track gains can be used to makes scratch live louder, all they can do is make a quiet track go as loud as a properly maximized track, or distort a full signal level track.

Bottom line: don't use the gain knobs inside scratch live to turn up the unit - use the mixer gain.

3pm, try the zoom as well(command+option+=) in the OS it makes seeing the bpm display so much easier. And yes, chubbsta, the correct keys are command+option+control+8 ,thanks for pointing that out.

i use the zoom all the time (like for playing small movie clips on websites), but never thought of using the screen invert. unfortunately, my boss sold my laptop today so i will have to wait until i get a new one tomorrow to try.

BC, It shouldn't be to hard to change a resistor in the Scratch Box output stage to make the level higher.

You will loose the warranty first, and second I dont know which resistors that would be. We need some official help on this thing.

Of course it would be helpfull if we don't have to figure out which resistor to mod ourselves. As for the warranty: It looks like a quality build box so I don't expect I need to call warranty. It will be software updates that are needed....

The boxes I have tested output close to the voltage of USB, that's all that will be able to be drawn from the bus, if there are other factors affecting what's happening we'll get to the bottom of it. Please don't butcher your boxes, I seriously doubt it will help. Software already outputs 0dBFS at clipping as far as I can tell.

In that case it indeed does not make sense to increase gain. It also
should be plenty to overdrive the mixer input stage.


If you're already have more as 3Vpp at the output I guess no more will be needed.

Man I can't believe all the help and insight you have given me in such a short period. Not that I will decide strictly on that alone (ha ha) but its impressive and if I do decide a purchase it, it seems there are alot of knowledgeable and willing people to help with any problems or question I may have. Thanks all and thank you Serato for the Forum. Very positive and helpful.

Just an idea. Is it possible that the people who are reporting this problem (output far too low) are running on laptops which (for whatever reason) aren't outputting the full 5v on the USB line? Wouldn't that make the SSL output quieter? Or is my memory of school physics playing tricks on me again?

that's as far as i can tell too. i don't think ssl has a gain problem.

what mixer are you guys using? it's entirely possible the phono input is actually louder than the line input on the mixer or it's just bunk. i just tested a few mp3s in ssl (where they're gained so they occasionally touch in the red in ssl, if at all) compared to my regular vinyl. on my ttm56, the levels peak around +4 on the meter and the mixer gain is set around 11 o'clock (4) with ssl's master gain cranked. when i flip to either phono (vinyl) or line (ssl of course), i get the same output.

I also feel the default level is a bit to low (about 6 dB more would be better). With a normal mp3 and the global gain to max I can't get my DJM600 line input into red. When I also increase the mp3-channel gain I can. So the box *can* give out enough level, but won't because there is some level 'reservered' for the mp3-channel gain.
Josh, this would be solved if the global gain control would have a larger range. Could this be looked at in a future revision?

BTW: I bought SSL today. Instalation was very easy, everythings works perfect. Very well done! Thanks to all people at Serato/Rane!

i have same "problem". lot of users are praying for this... is it so difficult to make us more happy with SSL? :_(

i would like to play normal vinyls and SSL without changing mixer gains everytime i switch phono-line input...

pleeeease!

I know a deal: If the master gain will be set to a larger range in a future software release, I won't look for the resistors to change the gain myself :-)

That wont help b/c the sound will clip then...

I know this was a discussion before and I am having the same issue.... its just not loud enough.... have any serato people answered this question in the past and I missed it? can version 1.2 be louder?

I agree, the level is far too quiet. With FS the channel gains on my TTM56 were typically set to around 3.5/4 but with SSL they need to be set to 6 or higher.

If the analog supply on the components is high enough it could be done either by a hardware gain increase (component change) or a software gain increase (in case the DAC does no go to full scale yet). Of course the easiest/prefered way is a software update.

A question I have related to this is how the VU level indicator in the virtual deck relates to the DAC level. Does the top (red) means 0 dBFS? Or is there headroom (how much)?

I'd like to set up my 'normal' playing level to about -10dBFS so can crank up the gain when the mixer has a low sensetive input or the MP3 is not loud enough.

AJ/Josh this getting a bit OT. Should I start a new thread on this?

you're correct red is 0dBFS AFAIK. You could use an editor to make a couple of files (one at 0dBFS, one at -10) and use those to callibrate your system.

If red is 0dBFS the level the voltage the SSL interface generates is not enough for my DJM600 mixer. See previous posts in this thread... Any thoughts on this?

what do you mean by "not enough"?

I mean that when I turn the DJM600 gain to maximum and use both master gain and channel gain on SSL to make the SSL VU just hit red, I get the VU indication on the DJM600 where it just hits 3dB. When I play an analog vinyl and turn up the DJM600 gain to max I can overdrive the input and the whole VU bar turns full red, about +12 dB.
To summarize: at least on a DJM600 there is a major level difference between playing analog vinyl and SSL, and even with all settings to max the level is on the low side.

That's about the only problem I have. I'm really happy with SSL, it works very well!

I wouldn't mind doing some experiments if that would help you. We have an anti-static workspace and SMD soldering tools here if I need to try a mod.

can you try an experiment for me? try plugging in a normal home CD player into on line in channel and compare that?

It's just that a few users of these mixers have reported similar things, and I'd like to get a little more info.

Ok, will try this tonight and let you know.

mmm rodec bx9 has same issue.

i dont know if its a line low volume input problem... please bartaug, let us know mate :)

i dont know tech stuff like a lot of these people, but what im describing is bottom line, when I spin with ssl, i have to crank gains a good amount more than when spinning vinyl.... and far more than final scratch..... its not a huge problem and definetly worth the advantages of ssl, but if its possible to make the master gain on the software about double what it is now, itd help.....

Hi Josh, I did some testing. All measurements are done playing the same track on the same physical input channel of the DJM600 without changing any knobs.
1) Play track with CDJ-500S player --> Vu reads +4 dB
2) Play track with Philips consumer player --> Vu reads +4 dB
3) Play track over SSL --> Vu reads -2 dB

This is with maximum SSL master gain and SSL channel gain to neutral (12 o'clock). When I turn up channel gain so the SSL Vu starts to hit red (just before distortion) I also have +4 dB on the mixer Vu.

The conclusion I draw from this is that with the current level settings the SSL box hardly has any headroom. For best signal quality this is good (as all the 16 bits are used at line level) but it is a problem when switching vinyl/SSL or when a sound system is set to a max based on the vinyl output. I would prefer about 6-10 dB headroom. What do you think?

PS: I also checked the VU readout on the DJM600 with a regular 12" which is +7 dB.

An option to change the Scratch Live output dB's would be great... everyone could adjust this to fit their needs.

I think it can only be done by a mod in the hardware....

Hi Josh, What do you think of my findings?

I gotta agree, the output from the box is way low. Just informally when I play the records on a DJM 600, I go to full green (just under one red), then I play the same track I recorded(a recording from vinyl, optimized and normalized) through SSL and I'm at around 3 green below 1 red...if that makes any sense.

Yes, I wrote something like that in dB figures in this thread. I'm hoping I can change a resistor to fix this.

thanks bartaug, we have some similar findings here, please don't mod your box, we will investigate further.

Ok, I will wait for you to come back on this. If there is any testing I can do to help let me know, I'm happy to do so.

The same "little problem" here with a Gemini UMX-5 Mixer.